debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 8:41:38 AM)
(This user has entered CAPD: From the Heart) (IP = 172.150.189.177)
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 8:41:47 AM)
hey hon
aussieangel (ID=7) (Nov 6, 2001 8:42:17 AM)
how are things??
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 8:42:49 AM)
ask me in 6 or 7 hours and i'll have a better answer for you.. I have a meeting at 1:00 at the school board
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 8:43:15 AM)
today is the final meeting to go over the results of the testing from the due process hearings
aussieangel (ID=7) (Nov 6, 2001 8:43:18 AM)
oh good or bad
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 8:43:37 AM)
i dont expect any good to come of it in all honesty
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 8:43:44 AM)
maybe im just pesemistic
aussieangel (ID=7) (Nov 6, 2001 8:44:33 AM)
understand..........Andrew's head phones are doing wonders.......he's go up a level in spelling and maths has also improve out of site..........
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 8:44:40 AM)
the news about your page sounds great! I'm so very proud of you
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 8:45:51 AM)
I got a letter from the school itself last week saying they are concerned about sarah's academic progress and they are requesting I come in immeadiately to set up an academic improvement plan that involves intensive remeadiation in writing and reading and then at the end of the year we'll discuss her status for the upcoming school year
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 8:46:17 AM)
yet today, i am sure they will come to me and tell me how wonderful everything is going and she dont need help!
aussieangel (ID=7) (Nov 6, 2001 8:46:52 AM)
why thank you .......also am waiting on answer from my local mp about the possibility of abtaining a grant.......keeping fingers cross prob want know before xmas though
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 8:47:54 AM)
we did get a small grant from AOL for the NCAPD to publish the handbook
dr.j (ID=9) (Nov 6, 2001 8:48:18 AM)
(This user has entered CAPD: From the Heart) (IP = 12.79.106.241)
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 8:48:34 AM)
Good Morning Dr J!
aussieangel (ID=7) (Nov 6, 2001 8:48:40 AM)
yeah know the routine well ......moving the kids to the private sector here was the best thing we did for Andrew..........I don't get any of the problems I had before....the only time I heard from them is to communicate with his tutor
aussieangel (ID=7) (Nov 6, 2001 8:48:58 AM)
godd morning Dr J .....
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 8:49:05 AM)
It's good to hear things are going well for Andrew......how's Dave and Emily doing?
dr.j (ID=9) (Nov 6, 2001 8:49:25 AM)
good morning, debbie (I got the fax ;-) ) and
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 8:49:29 AM)
Dr J, woody refaxed the info to you from work a bit ago...
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 8:49:33 AM)
YEAH!!!!
aussieangel (ID=7) (Nov 6, 2001 8:49:42 AM)
they are both fine
dr.j (ID=9) (Nov 6, 2001 8:49:46 AM)
G'day aussieangel
dr.j (ID=9) (Nov 6, 2001 8:50:41 AM)
BTW, debbie, the fax came out great. Easy to read.
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 8:50:57 AM)
I"m going to call woody real quick and let him know you got the fax! He refaxed it from work this morning..that's not from the office
dr.j (ID=9) (Nov 6, 2001 8:50:57 AM)
I should say (what) good evening debbie down under? ;-)
aussieangel (ID=7) (Nov 6, 2001 8:51:53 AM)
how is it going over there nice and cold yet it's warming up here alls well with me and my family Andrtew is doing extremely well........getting great feed back about my page also .....also maybe a possibility on a conference here in aussieland late next year or in 2003
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 8:54:14 AM)
I"m back....Woody is such a lifesaver for me sometimes!!
dr.j (ID=9) (Nov 6, 2001 8:54:21 AM)
Yes, aussie.....it is ccccccold. Over night was in the mid 30s (F) single digits (C). Expecting it to be in the mid-50s (F) during the day. Yet, over the weekend (only two days ago) it was in the 70s and we were NOT wearing coats or even sweaters. THis am I put Joshie in his heavy coat. Frost covered out lawn.
dr.j (ID=9) (Nov 6, 2001 8:54:51 AM)
debbie, it comes from his heart as well
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 8:54:57 AM)
We had a few days of cold weather here,,,but it's been fairly nice the last few days again.
dr.j (ID=9) (Nov 6, 2001 8:55:03 AM)
Say hello to Woody and thank him for the fax
dr.j (ID=9) (Nov 6, 2001 8:55:30 AM)
.oO(Hmmmmmm cold weather in FLorida.....hmmmmmm down in the mid to upper 60s, eh? ;-) )
Copycat (ID=10) (Nov 6, 2001 8:55:34 AM)
(This user has entered CAPD: From the Heart) (IP = 134.126.65.146)
Copycat (ID=10) (Nov 6, 2001 8:55:50 AM)
(This user has left DigiChat) (IP = 134.126.65.146)
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 8:55:57 AM)
I have to say I'm looking forward tothis meeting today, yet I'm very apprehensive also. I feel like there is so much riding on today.
dr.j (ID=9) (Nov 6, 2001 8:55:58 AM)
good morning Copycat (or as my son would call you Me-Ow)
Babs (ID=11) (Nov 6, 2001 8:56:18 AM)
(This user has entered CAPD: From the Heart) (IP = 172.138.29.163)
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 8:56:19 AM)
It was actually down in the 30's or 40's a few evenings dr j
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 8:56:23 AM)
hi Babs!
Babs (ID=11) (Nov 6, 2001 8:56:38 AM)
Good morning!
dr.j (ID=9) (Nov 6, 2001 8:56:50 AM)
Well, essentially, if I get what you've been telling me, the meeting is to determine eligibility (because they are reviewing the test data)
dr.j (ID=9) (Nov 6, 2001 8:56:55 AM)
GOod morning Babs
Barbara (ID=12) (Nov 6, 2001 8:57:25 AM)
(This user has entered CAPD: From the Heart) (IP = 63.214.69.103)
aussieangel (ID=7) (Nov 6, 2001 8:57:43 AM)
debbie will get hold of you about a chat room with in the next week or so.......things are looking great am hoping to start it up asap..........
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 8:57:53 AM)
They have made it extremely clear the meeting is only to review test data and NOT to determine eligibilty for any services
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 8:58:04 AM)
sounds good aussie
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 8:58:10 AM)
good mroning Barbara
Barbara (ID=12) (Nov 6, 2001 8:58:19 AM)
Hello there
Babs (ID=11) (Nov 6, 2001 8:58:29 AM)
Hello everyone, thought I'd drop in before working...
dr.j (ID=9) (Nov 6, 2001 8:58:33 AM)
Well, then why hold a meeting to go over test data?
dr.j (ID=9) (Nov 6, 2001 8:58:42 AM)
GOod morning Barbara
Babs (ID=11) (Nov 6, 2001 8:58:57 AM)
Hi Dr.J
Rose4x (ID=13) (Nov 6, 2001 8:59:09 AM)
(This user has entered CAPD: From the Heart) (IP = 63.214.199.237)
dr.j (ID=9) (Nov 6, 2001 8:59:13 AM)
Babs, that is certainly the right icon for early morning (slow and steady) ;-)
dr.j (ID=9) (Nov 6, 2001 8:59:27 AM)
GOod moring ROse4x (May we call you Rose?)
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 8:59:30 AM)
I have a feeling it is because we went to due process and they are required to since the testing was a result of the due process
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 8:59:37 AM)
good morning Rose!!!
Babs (ID=11) (Nov 6, 2001 8:59:42 AM)
I know, Im sluggish, been working on an apd presentation until the wee hours...
dr.j (ID=9) (Nov 6, 2001 9:00:17 AM)
Been there many times, Babs. FOr what is the presentation if you don't mind my asking?
Rose4x (ID=13) (Nov 6, 2001 9:00:27 AM)
Sure can call me Rose the 4x just is a way for people to know which Rose I am.
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 9:00:38 AM)
When I asked I was told they would not have the proper personnell there to determine eligibility that I would have to have a seperate meeting at school with the Child Study TEam....Goodness Graciou!! I cant' think of who we are missing
dr.j (ID=9) (Nov 6, 2001 9:01:33 AM)
OK, if I go down the garden path, and circle it four times, then I find the sweetest Rose, right?
Babs (ID=11) (Nov 6, 2001 9:01:36 AM)
a combination. half the audience is LD teachers, the other is parents of LD. Then I have to tailor it for a group of pediatricians...I think I have created a monster in Maitland! Things are beginning to be requested....
Rose4x (ID=13) (Nov 6, 2001 9:01:41 AM)
Debbie how did the meeting go, did you have it yessterdday or is it today?
dr.j (ID=9) (Nov 6, 2001 9:02:39 AM)
dr.j (ID=9) (Nov 6, 2001 9:03:04 AM)
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debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 10:22:28 AM)
Rose4x (ID=14) (Nov 6, 2001 10:22:30 AM)
Rose4x (ID=14) (Nov 6, 2001 10:23:20 AM)
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 10:23:28 AM)
dr.j (ID=22) (Nov 6, 2001 10:23:44 AM)
dr.j (ID=22) (Nov 6, 2001 10:23:46 AM)
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 10:24:04 AM)
Rose4x (ID=14) (Nov 6, 2001 10:24:43 AM)
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 10:24:57 AM)
Rose4x (ID=14) (Nov 6, 2001 10:25:11 AM)
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 10:25:35 AM)
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 10:25:45 AM)
Copycat (ID=15) (Nov 6, 2001 10:26:10 AM)
Rose4x (ID=14) (Nov 6, 2001 10:26:29 AM)
Rose4x (ID=14) (Nov 6, 2001 10:27:01 AM)
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 10:27:12 AM)
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 10:27:42 AM)
Rose4x (ID=14) (Nov 6, 2001 10:27:48 AM)
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 10:28:22 AM)
Rose4x (ID=14) (Nov 6, 2001 10:28:26 AM)
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 10:28:40 AM)
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 10:28:55 AM)
Rose4x (ID=14) (Nov 6, 2001 10:29:11 AM)
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 10:30:06 AM)
Rose4x (ID=14) (Nov 6, 2001 10:30:38 AM)
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 10:31:43 AM)
Rose4x (ID=14) (Nov 6, 2001 10:31:48 AM)
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 10:32:05 AM)
Rose4x (ID=14) (Nov 6, 2001 10:32:38 AM)
Rose4x (ID=14) (Nov 6, 2001 10:33:09 AM)
Rose4x (ID=14) (Nov 6, 2001 10:33:27 AM)
debbie (ID=8) (Nov 6, 2001 10:33:55 AM)
Let's see, did they forget to invite the School Board?
Babs, is that you Barbara?
Yes, what there is of me that is here this morning
No there are two of us
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Babs is Barbara C in Maitland, Dr. J...good thing I used Babs not Barbara
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SOrry, smiley face Barbara. BUt, I know Barbara from Maitland Audiology.
Good to see you again Babs
Sorry I lost my connection
Babs, is that a knickname you use?
ROse, sounds like you're on my computer today ;-)
Lots of Debbie's and Barbara's this am..=) We are going to have dr j confused..*LOL*
Yes around friends
not at all, easy I just say Hi debbie and Hi Barbara and I've got it all covered, just need to have Rose change her name to debbie or babara ;-)
1/2 the people in here probably know each other from Orlando conference and dont recognize each other due to names in here
Well, let's ask. Rose were you at the NCAPD conference in Orlando?
ANd same question to Barbara ?
dr.j, The report I got from the CAPD testing that my 15 yr.old son was given does not say whether he has been diagnosed with this disability or not. It just gives the scores. I ahve been playing phone tag with the audiologist who administered the tests, but what do you think is going on here?
Off hand, Barbara I can't say, but my suspicion is this.....
I was at the conference, I met Dr.J and Debbie
Dr.J, I know children with apd sometimes get missdiagnosed with ADD, my son has both. How can we dissstinguish which is effeting him and when, sometimes it is so hard to tell.
Babs, aussieangel was at the conference also..she is debbie from down under...she went to dinner with all us on Saturday night
No I was not at the conference, I couldn't ssqueeze in another vacation.
I was not at the conference. I joined the list in time to see the anticipation for the conference, but at that time did not know if this was what we were dealing with or not. I guess I still do not know.
SOunds like the audiologist may be applying what I call a test battery approach in which a series of tests are given and all the professional does is report if the child passed or failed the tests. However, usually, the conclusion audiologists applying a test battery approach take is to say...."Results indicate problems in auditory processing on......."? and then they list the tests the child failed.
Alright, I do remember the Debbies
Well, Barbara, we're just going to have to encourage you to get the ball going in your area and, with Debbie Wood and hte NCAPD set up a local conference.
Rose, if i remember right you are in the NE right? WE are hoping to have a conference up inthe Philly area next year. Working on details now
Well I will be sure to make that one you'll be in my hometown than.
I thought so Rose...I"ll let you know more details asthey are set.
Well, then, ROse, perhaps we can ask you (and debbie, I have another parent also willing to help) to assist the NCAPD in the Philadelphia area conference in terms of getting the word out and maybe assisting us in other ways if you are willing?
Dr.J may not be getting confused but as one of the Barbaras I keephaving to reread the script to follow!
Dr.J have you ever heard of a program called Earrobics and how well do you think this program is at helping kids with APD. This is the program my son usses in school.
Well, the report certainly does explain the problems he faces when trying to hear under certain conditions, as well as steps that should be taken to minimize the problem. I just did not know whether a dx was valuable to have. We had the initial team meeting at the school two weeks ago and I believe a 504 plan has been written up for him. I am heading down to the school this morning to pick it up for my review
Ssssure just let me know what you need me to do.
FIrst, we need to teach debbie not to say Philly, unless Barbara differs from mostly all the people I know from Philadelphia. My Philadelphia friends hate the use of Philly except for the Baseball team.
ok..cherry hill *LOL*
Barbara, Did you participate in writing up the 504?
Philly doesn't bother me or mosst of us here in my experience
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good morning copycat! Happy to see you made it back today
Well, Barbara, it depends on why a diagnosis is needed. Also, just explaining how a child has performed under certain artificial test conditions may say nothing about what that means for the child in the real world. For me, and from my approach to APD, the most important job the professional has is to translate the test info and the test behaviors to real world....and to describe accommodations for real world ..... but most important the real critical and most often missing part of the audiologist's APD assessment (in my extensive experiences) is to provide specific individualized recommendations for treating the specific areas of APD deficit.
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Good morning Cindy
Good Morning
good night all it's 12:30am here in aussie land Iam off for some shut eye talk to you all soon.........have a nice day hope it's not too cold over there for you
Hello
Good morning Cindy and Copycat
I think the process of collaboration is what we are in the middle of now. I will look at the report and ask for changes I feel are necessary. the woman who is tutoring my son after school is urging me to have a full day SLP work up on him. That is scheduled for two weeks from now, and she wants me to wait and have that SLP look over the 504 after he has tested to provide his input.
ALso, we have to remember that a 504 plan does NOT address any skills development, improving processing abilities, or learning issues. It merely addresses accessibility to the information that is provided.
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aussie....it was good to see you..i'll email you later and let you know the results of today@
Since my son has multiple Ld's it is hard to determine whih one effects him the most. How can one know for sure whether it is truely apd that needs to be addressed and not another LD.
hello debbiec
before I sign the report
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In my experience, especailly the HS and older child, when a processing problem is present, there is a need to develop skills, strategies, ways to deal with the problem, not improved access.....
Just because you can get the message easier doesn't mean you can process it better (in mostly all the cases I have worked with, especially in the older child).
Hi Dr J, I spoke w/you several weeks ago about my daughter Jennifer.
Dr.J how ffrequently do you ssee APD diagnosed in children who also have ADD? Is thisss common or unusual?
Barbara, one question you may want to ask the school is ,,if you sign the report now, can it be modified to include the input of the SLP once the testing is completed......if not, I would not sign the report yet
ROse, to answer your question.....a lot depends on the presenting problems (what are problems seen in school, social, life...) and how the APD test results and behaviors explain why the child is performing the way the child is. Then you address the underlying factor....
I have 4 children all whom have language diffficulties, 2 of them are diagnosed ADHD. One is suspected of having ADD. Only one with ADHD has been diagnosed with APD. Should all the kids get APD testing?
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Has anyone ever given their child a non-verbal psy test
Sorry I was in the middle of typing in a response and got booted out by my ISP.
YEs, why do you ask, Cindy?
Three of the four either ccurrently get speech or have had it in the past. Two of them have had diagnosis of language based LD's.
what does a non verbal test tell you that a regular psy test would
tell you about your child w/apd
Is this a typiccal finding in children with APD, the language based LD?
I ask the school to give my daughter a non verbal test and they said no,
A non-verbal IQ test (a true non-verbal meaning not even verbal directions) tells the thinking abilities of a child based on visual perceptual tasks. It removes the language and auditory factors that can affect a verbal IQ test.
However, if a child has a visual perceptual problem, then the use of a non-verbal IQ test is biased agains t the child.
so would a non verbal test really tell you your child's true IQ or how well your child could perform if they are more of visual learners
HEre's the best example, Cindy......if you don't mind my doing a little exercise with you...just questions and answerrs.
ok
Thank you for your explanations, dr.j. I guess the problems with processing may also be better defined with the SL eval. The audiologist's report did seem to focus on getting the msg easier, and not processing. Debbie, rather than complicate the situation in the school's eyes (engage in threatening behavior) I may just stall.
What would you say is your IQ if I gave the questions to you in Chineses (I assume you don't speak or know chinese language)?
no chinese here
very low IQ
GOod, so you are now retarded because I gave you a test using language that you can not understand, right?
right
Barbara, if you do not want to ask that sort of question, then I would definitely stall....
Now, let's change the task to the English language, but, I if you don't mind my asking, what part of the country are you from?
NC
Dr.J my 9 year old is multiply challenged with LD's in every area, yet he scores at an above average intelligencce. How is this possible when he has visual perception problems, auditory problems, language problems, attention problems ect.?
OK, so if I were to give you the English based IQ test speaking with a very heavy Brooklyn accent and at an extremely loud (screaming level) voice and at a very very fast rate (like three times faster than normal) what would be your IQ?
Could this mean his IQ is actually above the level the tests indicate?
very low....would not beable to understand you.....
The neuropsych testing that my son was given found him to be extremely visual-spatial, on some of the tests, 100th percentile, even though the tester observed his responses to be somewhat subdued due to his struggle with language. That did make me wonder whether his scores are actually lower that they should be.
Now, the Chinese example is an analogy of a Language impaired child. The Brooklyn example is of a child with APD. SO, how can I test your ability to think and problem solve (IQ)? What if I presented a couple of visual based tasks like.....
WHich one of these is not like the other?
Or find the two that are the same?
Or here's a visual pattern, what comes next?
How do you think you would perform on these types of visual tasks?
I understand that and I tried to explain this to the school and they said it wouldn't make any difference to what type of services my child would have, they also said that the test they
I would think I would do poorly, yet I can't figure out how my 9 year old is testing at such a high IQ level with LD's in all areas.
gave her included verbal and non verbal
Then, CIndy you may need to have some professional come in to help you fight that battle and you should win.
In my experience with children with BOTH APD and LANGUAGe problems, it is critical that the cognitive testing (IQ) be BOTH a standard verbal test (like the WISC or Standford Binet) AND a non-verbal IQ test. ALso, the use of the non-verbal IQ test helps to filter out any visual perceptual problems as well.
if she is more of a visual learner, which we know she is, wouldn't the nonverbal test show her IQ being higher and if it does wouldn't that tell the school they need to change
their teaching style
Dr.J I have a very diffficult time dealing with the schools, I guess the fact that I have four children in three schools and am ADD myself tends to make it more diffficcult
dr j can you give an example of a nonverbal Is that the TONI?
if the school refuses to give my daughter a nonverbal, can I ask them to pay for the test outside of school
CIndy, the purpose of an IQ test is to assess a child's thinking and resoning and problem solving abilities (very critical to processing of ANY information verbal or non-verb al). So, the idea is to identify if a child has a deficit in thinking, resoning, decision making, problem solving (not related to dealing with verbal material or langauge material) thinking in general. Yes,
Three of four have an IEP and one is hopeffully getting a 504 plan soon. Too much for me to keep track off.
Dr. J, As an audiologist should I put a non-verbal IQ test in as one of my recommendations?
If a child is a visual learner (stronger visual perceptual skills) then a non-verbal, visual based IQ test will tell how the child reasons, THINKS, and not how the child first struggles with the auditory information or the language information and THEN thinks about what has been dealt with from the distortions due to the auditory processing problem or the lack of understanding of the language.
Rose, I wish you luck.....I have one and its hard to keep up with
One of your recommendations for WHAT?
Rose, even under the best circumstances dealing with schools can be difficult, hang in there.
(this was addressed to debbie c)_
If a child had a psy test 2 yrs ago, and another one a year later, and the scores dropped 5pts, would this tell you that your child did not learn anything during that year?
for the child!
yes
Dr. J I still don't understand how a hild who has Ld's in every area could test at an above average IQ. How do they get past the diffffiulties to determine actual intelligence.
Cindy if the school either says they refuse to have a non-verbal IQ test for your child AND you have other test evidence that supports LANGUAGE deficits or (best of all) APD problems, then, you have a very strong case to force the school to have non-verbal IQ testing done. Again, you may need a professional to come in as an advocate for you and your child to deal with the schools on a professional basis.
I have had good luck with the schools implementing my recommendations.
Cindy, when you say there was a drop in 5 points, what does that mean? Pleas
It is important that all parents have some understanding of scores and how to interpret test results.
I do have reports stating she does have apd
Cindy, any time a child takes a test, there may be a slight variance in scores from year to year.
Please remember there are normal ranges and what this means is that a child obtaning one score one year and a lower score another year but both are in the same (what is called) CONFIDENCE INTERVAL or range of scores.....
in 1998, verbal 71, performace 90, full scale 78
THe change is just a reflection of normal variability.....but the range is the SAME, so there is NO CHANGE in abilities ......if you follow what I am saying.
OK, CIndy and.....
I have heard or Earbotics an Fast Forward here on the chat, but has anyone ever heard or earrobics?
Debbiec, when you ask about adding the nonverbal as a recommendation, are you referring to follow up testing by an psych or slp?
THere is no Earbotics...it is Earobics (a take off in name on Aerobic exersices)
I have heard of earrobics and utilize it with some of my patients. Depending upon what the areas of deficit are it can be a good program to supplement remediaiton strategies.
Rose, I have went to different presentations about Earobics, but have not used it with Sarah
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drj have been having trouble with his server..he'll be back =)
sorry, this is Cindy....would let me sign in under Cindy again
debbie, Most of the children I have seen have already been seen by a psychologist and an speech pathologist. I am often concerned though about the validity of those tests since they have been presented aurally....
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IS the non-verbal testing a TONI and who administers it?
the TONI is one type of IQ test, better is the C-TONI as it is more comprehensive
I need to ask the school the name of the program being used again, the one they use is one I never heard of. It issn't either one I hear of on this chat. I guesss I just have the names onfused.
ok Dr J......in 1998, verbal 71, performance 90 full scale, 78 a year later verbal 71, performace 80 and full scale 73
in addition to this I had her retested for speech and she had rec'd speech at school 2x's week and she regress not improved
I need to go. Thanks everyone
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IQ testing is done by a psychologist or neuropsychologist. But be sure you have documented evidence that the psych or neuropshyc has experience in administering and interpreting non-verbal IQ tests.
Was wondering if anyone heard of it and knew if it worked, but I an't ask if I have the names messssed up.
A TONI is a non-verbal. In my area slps, audiologists, and psychologists administer the test. However, it is considered a screening non-verbal test by most of my psychologist and psychiatrist collegues in my area.
Cynthia, are you the same as Cindy only you were kicked out and had to come back in under adifferent name?
Soory about the typoss some of my keys are ssticking
yes Dr J
I couldn't sign in as cindy
do these scores tell me anything Dr J
dr j, i think you missed what debbiec said when you were bumped out of the chat...so im going to repeat and i think this will expalin her question earlier abou the nonverbal testing...
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CIndy/Cynthia, before I was kicked out, the performance IQ of 90 whatever, is very much in the normal range, and the WISC (sounds like WISC scores you are reporting) performance is less of a verbal load, so it's sort of like a non-verbal (not totally) test.
Hello everyone!
"Most of the children I have seen have already been seen by a psych and a SLP. I am often concerence though abou the validity of those tests since they have been presented aurally...."
hello NYC
she was given a verbal/nonverbal test
SInce performance testing is normal, the 71 and 70s in the verbal IQ do NOT reflect cognitive abilities but strongly indicate either problems in the auditory or language aspects so this is either due to an APD in auditory processing or language processing.
Dr.J does APD often co-exist with ADD? Is this common or unusual? Sshould all children diagnosed as ADD be tested for CAPD?
Hello NYC I hope everything has calmed a bit with you all in the big apple after 9/11
Non-verbal tests that can be used that I know are KABC has a nonverbal portion (good information norms maybe outdated though), and the Leiter
testing has shown she has apd and a language processing disorder
Yes, thanks. NY is a different place somehow.
Babs, what is the KABC?
the school recognizes the apd but not her having language disorder
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I have three diagnosed ADD, only one was tested for APD. The one tested has both apd and add, am wondering if this is common and if I should have other children tested.
ROse, NO. In my experience most of the kids I have seen who have APD do NOT have ADD or ADHD, and many of the kids I have seen with dx of ADD/ADHD do NOT have ADHD really (again , this is a matter of approach or how you define ADHD)
Many children with ADHD will show signs of problems processing verbal information because of the impulsivity which is (from my belief, approach and the professionals and experts in ADHD whom I follow) the underlying factor of a true ADHD problem. They act too quickly so they act on partical information not completely getting it all or procesing it all.
Would a child respond to add treatment if they truly didn't have ADD? My son does better with medication than without. So having both is uncommon, but is it possible? We have both diagnosis currently on him among many other, yet he still tests with a high IQ.
Again, in my experience, children who truly have ADHD, once they are medicated start to process things totally differently (not necessarily correct since processing involves learned fators and the child with ADHD may not have learned certain processes).
ROse, if you are saying can a person (child or adult) change in their behaviors if placed on, say, a stimulant mediation......definitely....
Just think of the studies and reports of the popularity of ritalin in colleges esp. around mid term and final exam time.
Rose, just because a child had ADD/ADHD or APD, does not mean they can not have a high IQ.
I should clarify, my son doesn't do better with procccessing verbal information on meds, he just isn't as figety and pays better attention.
Dr. J., what would explain the drop in scores, performance from a 90 to 80 and full scale from 78 to 73
SO, then, he has changed the way he processes information when placed on medication because he is now better able to get more of the information.
Dr., J, the school tells me this is no big deal....that it means nothing....
I understand that, I am just surprised that with LD's in almost every area of learning he is ccapable of exhibiting his intelligence on an IQ test. I am wondering if the test scores could be even higher if he wasn't so challenged with multiple LD's.
Cynthia, I will let Dr J, address the perfomance, but please understand the full scale is based on the performance and the verbal..so if there is a change in either of those scores, there will automatically be a change in the full scale.
Full scale is nothing more than sort of an average of the performance and the verbal combined. However a 10 point drop in performance IQ from a 90 to an 80 may reflect that the child has not grown in cognitive (thinking, reasoning, problem solving) abilities, but HAS gotten older. Often what becomes more important in such a case is to look at the raw scores for both tests.
Rose, of course. The test scores probably could and probably would be higher.....but what does that really mean? ANd why is it important to know if his IQ scores could be higher if that is not the way he is functioning in the real world?
Kauffman assesment battery for children according to a close professional friend it is considered an older test but good for supporting data to correlate with the TONI, she really likes to use it with kids who don't speak English (ESOL) or do so minutely to provide additional information.
what would the raw scores be....is that the break down of each area tested
yes cynthia
Dr.J whether on meds or not my son has difficulty hearing in a noisy environment and still only procceses part of what is said. so my conccern is how do we know whih ccauses more of a problem the APD or ADD?
ok, I have the break down on the first test given
Will the school give me the raw scores
Dr.j- This is my first visit to the chat. I am looking forward to your consultation for Humanistic Consultants later this month!
I am just curious over the IQ becccause he does get very frustrated that he has diffficulty expressing what he knows. He struggles in school, but does score well on standardized tests. I have to assume that the classroom environment may not be appropriately set up to allow for him to express himself in a way he is capble of.
Cynthia, the raw score is the actual number of items the child gets correct on each part of the IQ test (or what would be called the subtests). FOr example, imagine a child scoreing a raw score (number correct ) or 100 converts to (at age X) an IQ of 90. Then one year later (age X+1) the raw score is 102 or an IQ of 80. Note the change is due to only two additional items correct in one year of maturation and growth.
Reason behind this ....... investigate whether the child did NOT grow in thinking and problem solving possibly because the work was too difficult for the child to handle so the overwhelming tasks caused NO real learning or increase in natural problem solving, thinking to develop in that year's time.
Rose, has a trial with an FM system been done? If fit appropriately, it could help provide additional inofrmation as to whether the speech-in-noise is a larger issue for him in the educational setting. Of course, since I hopped on later, I don't have the specifics of where his apd deficit lies, etc. but when you mentioned the speech-in-noise aspect I thought of this.
Rose, the ability to express yourself is NOT a reflection of IQ IF non-verbal IQ or problem solving, reasoning, thinking is normal.
Dr J thanks for your help......I need to run, hope everyone has a great day!
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He did try the Fm system last year, but he didn't like wearing it. He complained that it only amplified the bacckground noise and he still couldn't hear what he was suppose to hear.
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Thank you Dr. J and all
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sorry I got kicked out again.
There are different systems out there and depending upon the knowledge of the person choosing the system it may or may not have been the best fit for him., perhaps a change is setting on the system or a different type such as one that is more of a sound field FM system that would amplify the teacher and benefit the whole room ...
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ALso, you have to really determine if the use of an FM system is really appropriate for him Rose. In my experiences, FM systems are over recommended and are sort for use as a treatement.
He is currently in a special ed class with only 9 kidds so there is less nisse to deal with. If he gets back in regular ed classsses we may have to try another fm sytem.
gotta go for a couple minutes, have to send out a fax. I'll log on soon...
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FM systems treat NOTHING. THey provide an accommodation to make speech more accessible, but it the child truly can not process what he has received even through an FM system (as most children who are using FM systems can still not process accurately, efficiently, or appropraitely what they receive) direct therapy or treatment (sic) is needed.
I am not onvined an fm ssysstem woulddn't help, but the sschools lack of knowledge about diffferent sysstems and proper adjustment make it hard to be sure either way.
Babs, it was really great to see you here and hope to see you more often. I am very busy now trying to finish up prep for ASHA (two presentations) but I'll be sending you the copy of my LAD test after ASHA.
Then, ROSE< again, you may need an experienced professional to come in to advocate and work with you and your son to help him and work with the schools.
I just want to remind everyone we do need to start wrapping the chat up for this morning within the next 5 to 10 min. There will be another chat tonight from 8 to 10 pm EST.
Rose, as I stated above, the appropriateness of an FM system should be determined based on test results, test performacne and the presenting problems.
Yes, and to all of you, come to the evening parent chats as they are very lively with parents who can't make this early time come and discuss issues amongst themselves as well.
I insisted that they have my son use the program they have in his school which is similiar ti Earrobiccs and ffast forward. He hates the program,but he is ussing it requardless of his opinion, the program is boring to him. The SD does usse ast forward which I would prefer, but they don't have it at my sons ssschool.
Our Sd is in the middsst of a state take over also and I am oncerned if this will be a good thing or a bad thing. I have no idea if they will be more apt to help or if things will get worse.
Rose, again, the program that is provided should be appropraite to his needs not merely waht the school district happens to have on hand. ANd, please understand, Rose, NO program, NO computer program, NO technology is going to treat or remediate anything, especially ADHD or APD. WHat is needed is a professional teaching your son new strategies and then using the programs to practice those strategies.
I can't immagine things being worsse I am in a constant struggle with the sshoolss.
Dr J I think you just made a huge statement!! What is needed is a professional teaching the strategies and then use the programs to practice the strategies!! Too often the professional teaching is missing and the computer programs are suppose to teach.
Rose you may really need a professional advocate to help you. More and more I am seeing how different schools are to dealing with IEP and related issues when a professional who knows what he or she is talking about comes in at the meeting.
Okay I hear you but just how does one go about getting an advoate to help? I can not afford to pay for one and have had no luck finding a dependable volunteer to help. I had an advocate assist me one, but she never followed through. I need someone who will stick with me through the process from beginning to end.
Yes, that is probably the greatest misrepresentation supported by Scientific LEarning Corp and being advocated by hundreds upon hundreds of parents and (worse in my opinion) professioanls. The programs are tools, NOT TRAINING>
That's not just eh misrepresentation of SLC though..it's by many program companies
Rose, everyone's situation will be different. As for pay for one, you may be able to find a advocacy agency that works on some grant or eventually sues the school district for costs. Otherwise, you have to consider the cost of poor education overall on your children's lives and the fees to pay for a professional to work with and advocate for and with you .
We probably need to go ahead and wrap up. I know Dr J has other meetings he needs to be at shortly. Thank you to everyone for you rparticipation in the chat this am. I really hope you will join tonight also if possible for you.
I guess sine the schools tend to try not to do anything, parents often are happy to get them to adddressss these issues in someway, even if it isn't really correct. Something is better than nothing we think, yet maybe the something doesn't matter if it isn't ddone the right way.
debbie, yes, I agree, maybe working for the past two weeks on my FFWD presentation (all finished for next week) and the article on FFWD has kept my mind on FFWD and Rose mentioned FFWD....but, yes, it is other companies as well (Lindamood-Bell is another one) I really have not seen this with Cognitive COncepts (EArobics).
Have a goo day Dr.J and keep me informed of the meeting in Philly an let me know how i can help.
Rose, I'm sure you and I know debbie will agree. The school's attitude is "trust me."
Rose have a great day and please if you have any other concerns, questions, etc. please feel free to contact me drj@ncapd.org
Well as parents we do not trust them at all, they continually fail our kidss. We just don't know what to do to make things right.
Just realized the tiem. I have to log out to. Bye everyone it was really a lively chat. Debbie, see you this afternoon telephone conferecne around 1pm.
talk to you then dr j...thank you...
Bye Dr.J thank you for comeing
So debbie how did your meeting go reguarding the due proess ecct.
it is today at 1
Bye
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that is the meeting dr j is sitting in on with me via teleconference
Well good luck, so far only one of my hilrens IEP's are done correctly(at least based on what we know so ffar) The other three I am still struggling to get things right. You are lucky to have him to help out.
I've been dealing with the schoolfor 3 1/2 years on my own.today I have a parent advocate and dr j sitting in wth me....for the first time , im not alone
When do you think next years meeting in Philly may be?
right now I am looking at that being the first conference next year. I am tenatively looking at April
Are you familiar with Cherry Hill area?
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You should see a great difffferne today than. The one time I did have an advocate things were very difffernt, I had hope for things to work out than. It was a shame the advoate did not follow through, she just left us hanging.
Well I know where it is but am not really familiar with the area.
and yes, I am lucky to have dr j helping me. The parent advocate has become a dear friend also. We have started a local support group together. She's a sweetie.
I will send you details about the conference as soon as I know definite details.
I want to do the same but my time is so very limited just trying to deal with my own kids.
I'd better go get ready..suit and tie time basically.. Im picking up the parent advocate and taking her to lunch before the meeting so that we have a few minutes to talk before the meeting.
Have you hosen a loation to hold the conference. I mean are you planning on it being in a hotel?
probably at a hotel....looking at the hilton
do you have other recommendatins?
Yes that is the best way to o it. review and prepare at luck first, it helps you know what to expecct
im not sure what to expect today..but they have quite aline up of people coming to the meeting..should be quite interesting
Well I use to work in the hotel businesss and may be able to help. I would need to know how many people you want the conferene to hold and what you need from the hotel. In adddition I need to know what you expet to pay the hotel if anything. I may be able to negotiate a better rate.
We are deciding right now if it will be a one or two day conference....as soon as the final decision is made, you will know. I appreciate the offer.. I have another parent up that way wo wants to help also. Maybe you could coordinate with her.
I am more familiar with Philadelphia hotels than those in Jersy, but I op know how they work things at hotels and may be able to assist.
I hate to run, because I always enjoy talking to you, but I"ve got to go get ready
Possible just put us in touh with eah other, good luck I have to run to get reay to babysit. I watch my neioghbors aughter while the mom goes to school.
Let me know how the meeting goess, write me an e-mail if you get time.Bye Bye
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