Julies Mom (ID=160) (May 15, 2001 8:36:35 AM)
(This user has entered CAPD: From the Heart) (IP =

dr.j (ID=161) (May 15, 2001 8:43:19 AM)
(This user has entered CAPD: From the Heart) (IP =

dr.j (ID=161) (May 15, 2001 8:44:16 AM)
good morning julies mom.......you look very much like debbie wood this am (just a reference to the icon you chose being the one debbie uses ;-)

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 8:45:04 AM)
(This user has entered CAPD: From the Heart) (IP =

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 8:45:18 AM)
Good Morning!!

dr.j (ID=161) (May 15, 2001 8:46:28 AM)
good morning becki good to see you again this am.

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 8:46:44 AM)
Dr J - I finally found out what the "cause" of my daughters capd - its language so how do i go about helping her now??

Julies Mom (ID=160) (May 15, 2001 8:46:48 AM)
Good Morning!

Julies Mom (ID=160) (May 15, 2001 8:47:21 AM)
Sorry.... left the room for a sec....

Julies Mom (ID=160) (May 15, 2001 8:48:23 AM)
My Daughter was just diagnosed as CAP last week.... I was surfing trying to find info and found this chat room. I've been looking forward to this chat for days!!...lol

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 8:48:44 AM)
So was I the first time:) its wonderful:)

dr.j (ID=161) (May 15, 2001 8:49:10 AM)
Becki, from what you say, the underlying factor in your daughter's problems processing auditory information is a LANGUAGE based factor. Thus, your daughter has a language processing problem. Language intervention is typically handled by a speech-lanugage pathologist.......

Julies Mom (ID=160) (May 15, 2001 8:49:18 AM)
Yes it is...

Carol (ID=163) (May 15, 2001 8:49:31 AM)
(This user has entered CAPD: From the Heart) (IP =

Julies Mom (ID=160) (May 15, 2001 8:49:41 AM)
Hello Carol.

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 8:49:49 AM)
The speech therapust at her school said she doesn't need a speech therapist to help her becasue she can talk so i was just making sure:)

Carol (ID=163) (May 15, 2001 8:49:57 AM)
Hi all

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 8:50:09 AM)

dr.j (ID=161) (May 15, 2001 8:50:15 AM)
first step would be to identify the specific lanugage areas that are deficient and determine if the problem is language processing or language knowledge. Then, deal with the language areas of deficit to increase knowledge (if needed) and teach your daughter how to use the rules of language to process more accurately and efficiently.

Julies Mom (ID=160) (May 15, 2001 8:50:48 AM)
My daughters problem is competing sentences....will be meeting with the school for first meeting today....

dr.j (ID=161) (May 15, 2001 8:50:54 AM)
Julies mom.....I'm glad you found this chat room.

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 8:50:58 AM)

Julies Mom (ID=160) (May 15, 2001 8:51:28 AM)
Me too! When I first recieved her diagnosis I was very confused!

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 8:51:30 AM)

dr.j (ID=161) (May 15, 2001 8:51:37 AM)
Julies mom, from what you just said, your dgt problem is not competing sentences, but, your daughter failed the competing sentences test of the APD test battery.

dr.j (ID=161) (May 15, 2001 8:52:13 AM)
Becki, it would be easier to read what you post if you'd not type all caps. I hope you don't mind my asking for that.

Julies Mom (ID=160) (May 15, 2001 8:52:24 AM)
Yes.. she scored above average on 3 of 4 tests... she was in the 2nd percentile for competing sentences...

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 8:52:28 AM)
Not at all - sorry:)

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 8:52:57 AM)
My daughter ranked in the 1% in all of the above:)

Julies Mom (ID=160) (May 15, 2001 8:53:37 AM)
What does that mean dr.j?

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 8:53:54 AM)
Once they get training in these areas, does their learning pick up repidly? I'm afraid that she's not ready for 2nd grade because she's so far behind but the school deosn't want to hold her back.

dr.j (ID=161) (May 15, 2001 8:53:57 AM)
Becki, sorry to miss something in what you said. You stated can a parent teach "this stuff" well, if the problem is knowledge based, provide experiences and give the knowledge. But if the problem is using lanugage, using rules, knowing which rules to develop./teach, then the "everyday parent" may need facilitation by a knowledgeable professional or the child may need to see an SLP professional.

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 8:54:39 AM)
Is a speech therapist in the school system qualified enough to do that?

dr.j (ID=161) (May 15, 2001 8:54:45 AM)
Julies MOm, too much going on.....I got your question "What does that mean dr.j?" but I must ask, to what are you refering?

Julies Mom (ID=160) (May 15, 2001 8:55:33 AM)
When you said her problem is not competing sentences, but failed the competing sentences test of the APD?

dr.j (ID=161) (May 15, 2001 8:56:19 AM)
Becki, it does not matter where the SLP practices. It has to do with the SLPs training, and mostly experience. I my experience, most school based SLPs know little to nothing about how to deal with processing problems. THey typically treat language knowledge problems and are NOT usually well experienced remediating processing disorders whether langugae processing problems or auditory based processing problems.

Carol (ID=163) (May 15, 2001 8:56:34 AM)
Dr. J, if the problem isn't language, but noise or background, can the child be "taught" to deal with that?

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 8:56:39 AM)
(This user has entered CAPD: From the Heart) (IP =

Carol (ID=163) (May 15, 2001 8:56:43 AM)
Hi Rose

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 8:57:06 AM)
Hello Carol

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 8:57:26 AM)
She was given the auditory trainer for a trial period to see if that is going to help and she says she can hear a little better but i'm not sure if she knows what I'm asking her.

dr.j (ID=161) (May 15, 2001 8:57:57 AM)
Well, how can a person have a PROBLEM called competing sentences? Competing sentences is not a real life task. BUt, we use competing sentences as one measure of auditory processing abilities on the APD test battery. Thus, if what I am interpreting of what you said is correct, your dgt had an APD test battery and failed the test called Competing Sentences. Is that correct?

Julies Mom (ID=160) (May 15, 2001 8:58:16 AM)

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 8:59:15 AM)
We are having to go to mediation with the school ditrict becasue they won't give my daughter any help with the processign problem becuz they said when she learns to read better, she won't have a problem anymore..

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 8:59:27 AM)
My son also has an auditory trainer for a trial period and I am not certain if it is helping or not. With his multiple diagnosises it is often hard for us to get input from him that is useful.

dr.j (ID=161) (May 15, 2001 8:59:30 AM)
Becki, EVERYONE and ANYONE hears better with an FM unit. You have had such experience being in a large room and hearing better when the speaker talks directly into the microphone and you hear the voice delivered from a loudspeaker. Even better would by a set of earphones you wear with which you can adjust the volume to your comfort listening level.

Cindy (ID=165) (May 15, 2001 8:59:39 AM)
(This user has entered CAPD: From the Heart) (IP =

Carol (ID=163) (May 15, 2001 9:00:01 AM)
Hi Cindy,

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:00:04 AM)
So how do you know if it is doing your child any good? (the auditory trainer, I mean)

Cindy (ID=165) (May 15, 2001 9:00:07 AM)
Good Morning

Carol (ID=163) (May 15, 2001 9:00:11 AM)
Debbie Wood says hello to everyone

Julies Mom (ID=160) (May 15, 2001 9:00:48 AM)
Good morning Cindy, Debbie

dr.j (ID=161) (May 15, 2001 9:00:55 AM)
Becki, then challenge them to put that guarentee in writing. That is, if they say she will not have ANY problems and can guarentee NO PROBLEMS once she learns to read, have them put their guarentee in writing and have them sign it and ask them WHat will be the goals and methods you will use to get her to learn to read?

Carol (ID=163) (May 15, 2001 9:01:01 AM)
she's at work and apologises for not being here

Cindy (ID=165) (May 15, 2001 9:01:02 AM)
What are you guys talking about this morning

Carol (ID=163) (May 15, 2001 9:01:43 AM)
Hi Cindy, mostly language issues this morning

Cindy (ID=165) (May 15, 2001 9:01:51 AM)
Good Morning Julies Mom

Cindy (ID=165) (May 15, 2001 9:02:02 AM)

dr.j (ID=161) (May 15, 2001 9:02:05 AM)
AN auditory trainer does NOTHING. It is only a way to broadcast a speaker's voice (the speaker talking into the microphone) to the child's ears (IF the child is wearing headphones. There is really no such thing as a trainer....that is, the FM system does NO training.

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:02:23 AM)
But the psychologist who did the testing said that it is a good bet that she won't learn how to read very good until she learns how to hear the letters, sounds, etc and shes not doing that right now..so how do you she learn in a setting that they are not willing to help?

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 9:02:23 AM)
Dr.J my son complains that the trainer also amplifies background noise which is distracting to him, the school audiologist states this is because his hearing is normal. Is there a way to just amplify the teacher and not other classroom noises?

dr.j (ID=161) (May 15, 2001 9:02:35 AM)
Depending on what is the child's problems behaviorally, processing, etc. will determine what will be the expected benefit from the FM system.

Carol (ID=163) (May 15, 2001 9:02:55 AM)
So it's not the answer for all CAPD kids?

dr.j (ID=161) (May 15, 2001 9:03:22 AM)
Becki, do you have test results demonstrating that your dgt has phonemic awareness or phonemic processing or auditory discrimination deficits?

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:03:30 AM)
yes tons of them...

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 9:03:32 AM)
I think it helps but isn't the answer, at least that is my opinion based on my son's expereiences with its use.

dr.j (ID=161) (May 15, 2001 9:04:07 AM)
(This user has left DigiChat) (IP =

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:04:13 AM)
and the psychologist wrote 2 different reports and went to the iep meeting with me trying to tell them that:)

Carol (ID=163) (May 15, 2001 9:04:26 AM)
Chat gremlins got Dr. J

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:04:31 AM)
:) lol

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:04:52 AM)
Has anyone here had to go to mediation from an iep meeting?

Carol (ID=163) (May 15, 2001 9:05:01 AM)
Becki, that's wonderful that you had the support from the psychologist

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 9:05:03 AM)
I was going to say he got booted, but I like the Gremlin idea better.

Cindy (ID=165) (May 15, 2001 9:05:05 AM)
I'm getting ready to Becki

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:05:17 AM)
And what is involved?

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 9:05:28 AM)
Not yet but may have to, due process is also a possiblitity

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:05:38 AM)
We areabout to file mediation papers.

dr.j (ID=166) (May 15, 2001 9:05:45 AM)
(This user has entered CAPD: From the Heart) (IP =

Cindy (ID=165) (May 15, 2001 9:05:47 AM)
I'm really not sure, this is all new to me..

Carol (ID=163) (May 15, 2001 9:05:50 AM)
Do you guys know, is there a way to get an IEP if the kids don't qualify? It's not something you can just ask for, right?

Cindy (ID=165) (May 15, 2001 9:05:55 AM)
I'm learning as I go along

Carol (ID=163) (May 15, 2001 9:05:56 AM)
Gremlins, Dr. J

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 9:05:59 AM)
Welcome back Dr.J

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:06:07 AM)
I went to a lawyer speaking on mediation, etc friday night and she said parents only win 10% of due process cases...

Cindy (ID=165) (May 15, 2001 9:06:17 AM)
You can ask for an OHI

Julies Mom (ID=160) (May 15, 2001 9:06:19 AM)
I think you have to write the school a request letter...

dr.j (ID=166) (May 15, 2001 9:06:26 AM)
SOrry, yes those gremlins just got me and yank.......please forgive me for asking but where were we in the discussion?

merinance (ID=167) (May 15, 2001 9:06:41 AM)
(This user has entered CAPD: From the Heart) (IP =

Carol (ID=163) (May 15, 2001 9:06:48 AM)
Hi merinance

merinance (ID=167) (May 15, 2001 9:06:58 AM)

Cindy (ID=165) (May 15, 2001 9:07:09 AM)
Hi Merinance

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:07:39 AM)
Dr j - I do have test results - loads of them, saying my daughters phonemic awareness, etc is down the tubes..

dr.j (ID=166) (May 15, 2001 9:07:58 AM)
Becki, I am surprised with what the lawyer said. What you may need is a child/parent special ed advocate then. In my experience, when parents go to due processing and request a fair hearing, in almost ALL cases, the schools provide some (if not all) services especially when the parents bring in advocates who understand the IEP system and the special ed system of that specific school district.

merinance (ID=167) (May 15, 2001 9:08:26 AM)
becki, are you in texas?

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:08:44 AM)
and the psy. went to the iep meeting with me and tried to explain to the iep team that until she knows and can understand sound blends etc that she won't be able to read well, they just ignored it

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:08:50 AM)
no, i'm in fl

Cindy (ID=165) (May 15, 2001 9:08:58 AM)
Dr. J, is it always a good idea to have an adovate w/you when going to these hearing

Cindy (ID=165) (May 15, 2001 9:09:20 AM)
I had that same experience Becki

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 9:09:23 AM)
I was wondering if there is a way to make an auditory trainer more effective, by lowering the background noise received? The teachers voice is amplified but so is the other classroom noises, which are distracting.

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:09:32 AM)
We have an advocate group here and they are helping me now..they school system hates to even hear their name:)

Carol (ID=163) (May 15, 2001 9:09:37 AM)
Dr. J, I have above average testing results on everything except audiory issues she gets low average results. I'm told from the school because she doesn't go below average in anything, she probably doesn't have CAPD. Is that true. We do the testing in July.

dr.j (ID=166) (May 15, 2001 9:09:40 AM)
Becki, then, you have evidence from the school that your dgt is NOT reading appropriately for her to be able to function successfully in the regular education environment. THen you have evidence that the underlying problem for her not reading is a phonemic awarness problem. THese are the arguements you need to have an advocate or professional make for you to get the school to listen. WIth them, the if ...... then, therefore, would be.....

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:09:41 AM)
Cindy - what did you do?

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 9:10:01 AM)
Cindy I would say it is best to have an advocate, however finding a good one who is available is often difficult.

dr.j (ID=166) (May 15, 2001 9:10:14 AM)
THe school needs to provide phonemicawareness training for my dgt. in order for her to have the fundamental auditory processing skills to learn to read.

Cindy (ID=165) (May 15, 2001 9:10:36 AM)
I had evaluations stating that Jennifer needed phonics to learn to read, and this was an evaluation done by Duke University, and the my tutor from the Hill Center told the school she need it

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:10:50 AM)
Well, our school doesn't think that its necessary unfortuntely..

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 9:10:59 AM)
I can't locate one.

Cindy (ID=165) (May 15, 2001 9:11:05 AM)
the speech theripist at school said b/c Jen had auditory problems she wouldn't do well w/phonics

dr.j (ID=166) (May 15, 2001 9:11:17 AM)
Carol, you said you have above average everything.....whatever...... Bottom line for you and for ALL parents.....

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:11:23 AM)
My dgts eacher told them, i told them, the psyh told them, the pace program lady told them

Cindy (ID=165) (May 15, 2001 9:11:43 AM)
and b/c she didn't get it thru school I'm having to pay tons of money to her to 4th grade reading, she is now at 2nd grade

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:11:51 AM)
Rose - call your state education boarda nd they can tell you where to find one

Julies Mom (ID=160) (May 15, 2001 9:12:00 AM)
Now that we know the area my daughter has dificulties in what is our next step.... the audiologist gave us some recomendations.... but was wondering in an FM system would be a good idea?

Julies Mom (ID=160) (May 15, 2001 9:12:15 AM)
Do I need to send her more more testing?

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 9:12:36 AM)
Finding one isn't a problem, finding one who is available and knowledgable is the problem.

dr.j (ID=166) (May 15, 2001 9:13:16 AM)
FIrst, do you have evidence in writting that your child is not doing well in school? Remember the special ed (IDEA) law and the disability (ADA/Section 504) law state that the school must provide special accommodations and servives (IEP) to any child demonstrating specific problems learning in school.....so first you have to provide written evidence that your children are having problems learning in shcool. NOt test results from outside sources or specific tests from psychologists, SLPs, Auds, etc. but evidence from school reports, school tests, etc. etc. that your child is NOT performing well in school.'

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 9:13:23 AM)
I had one who was great, but she is impossible to depend on regularly.

Cindy (ID=165) (May 15, 2001 9:13:54 AM)
I do Dr. J

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:13:58 AM)
So, Dr J, we need their school papers with all F's to prove it? I have plenty of those..

Julies Mom (ID=160) (May 15, 2001 9:14:12 AM)
Will report cards etc support that... or do I need the sp ed teacher to write a report?

Carol (ID=163) (May 15, 2001 9:14:25 AM)
That's my problem Dr. J, she does well in school as long as she's constantly refocused and her attention is brought into the area

dr.j (ID=166) (May 15, 2001 9:14:28 AM)
Rose4x is correct. It is often difficult to find advocates who are available AND knowledgeable. Especially, advocates who understand ANYTHING at all about APD. This is a major reason that a large part of my practice and work is parent/child advocacy related specifically to AUditory Processing.

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:14:30 AM)
We don't even have a special ed teacher at our school

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:15:06 AM)
My advocate didn't understand capd but she has studied it and is learning with me..

Cindy (ID=165) (May 15, 2001 9:15:11 AM)
Do you go to a public school Becki

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:15:26 AM)

Cindy (ID=165) (May 15, 2001 9:15:44 AM)
What do they do for children who are in need of special Ed

dr.j (ID=166) (May 15, 2001 9:15:50 AM)
Carol, do you have evidence in written form or parent teacher conferences (which you could provide notes even your own) stating that the teacher or assistant have to constantly refocus your dgt. and get her attention? That indicates she may have some attentional problems or distractibility issues that require accommodations or special educational services.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 9:15:59 AM)
My son has an IEP in place so we obviously have proof he isn't doing well or he wouldn't jhave been eligible. My problem is that I can't get them to appropriately address his needs to allow him to learn with his peers. They truly don't understsand how to help with the auditory issues.

Carol (ID=163) (May 15, 2001 9:16:21 AM)
Yes, the teacher herself wrote it in the notes.

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:16:34 AM)
I'm not sure any of the schools know much about capd..

Cindy (ID=165) (May 15, 2001 9:16:41 AM)
I agree Becki

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:17:16 AM)
I have given them info but I don't even think they read it..

Carol (ID=163) (May 15, 2001 9:17:16 AM)
They say it doesn't require anything more than the teacher is doing. But she's out of her mind when she gets home from all the work she's had to do in the day.

dr.j (ID=166) (May 15, 2001 9:17:16 AM)
Rose4x, if you really believe the schools are not appropriately addressing your son's issues in auditory areas, you have the right to bring in a specialist to challenge the schools and (if necessary) the schools may have to hire a specialist to train their personnel or to provide services to your son.

Julies Mom (ID=160) (May 15, 2001 9:17:27 AM)
The school has recomended that Julie be ICRP'd and tested by ISNC.... would this be proof of problems in school?

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:17:34 AM)
Unfortuntately hekids are the ones who suffer

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:18:03 AM)
Dr J, do they have to pay for that specialist??\

dr.j (ID=166) (May 15, 2001 9:18:09 AM)
Carol, you have written evidence, then, that your dgt has special needs. SO, if the school will not provide accommodations or special services, you would have a strong case for a fair hearing which schools usually do NOT want to go to. YOu may need an advocate as well.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 9:18:20 AM)
His problem is that he has difficultly following multistep direction or understanding the way sentences are worded at times. He can do the work if this problem is addressed, but no one wants to take the time to reword things he can't process.

Cindy (ID=165) (May 15, 2001 9:18:25 AM)
Because the school didn't give my daughter what she needed she is 2 years behind in reading

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:18:42 AM)
My daughter is 7 on a 5 year old readinga nd processing leel..

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:18:52 AM)

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 9:19:15 AM)
My son is in third grade and reads on a Kindergarten-1st grade level. His test results fluctuate from moment to moment.

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:19:37 AM)
Why, Dr. J, do these kids remember something one minute but not the next day?

Cindy (ID=165) (May 15, 2001 9:20:11 AM)
good question Becki

dr.j (ID=166) (May 15, 2001 9:20:31 AM)
Becki, yes. For example, I recently contracted with a school specifically for children with special needs (many, the vast majority with auditory and language based APD). THe school has (remember this is one school with two different bldings for two levels primary/elementary and middle/secondary school). THey have about 500 kids (max) with 7 SLPs, and many other reading, OT, psycholoigsts, etc. One school audiologist. BUT, no one has expertise or experience with APD. They just had a parent fight the school for APD services, and all the school provided was an FM system. SO.....

Cindy (ID=165) (May 15, 2001 9:20:32 AM)
My daughter is like that

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:21:20 AM)
My dhtr doesn't retain very much at times

Cindy (ID=165) (May 15, 2001 9:21:49 AM)
I am surprised at some of the things she does remember, and c onfused at the things she doesn't

dr.j (ID=166) (May 15, 2001 9:21:50 AM)
The bottom line was they hired me to do inservice training and consultation to help the teachers, the SLPs, the Audiologist, etc. to understand how to deal with children with APD issues and how to differentiate auditory problems from language problems from motivational problems......and the school has to pay my fees NOT the parent who brought the suit against the school.

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:22:01 AM)
But if you remind her what she is supposed to be doing and show her what to do, then she remembers..

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 9:22:02 AM)
Becki my son gets extended year schooling to help him to remember things long term, he needs lot of repetition in order for things to be mastered. ESY givews him continual exposure to information he needs to learn and it helps.

Julies Mom (ID=160) (May 15, 2001 9:22:11 AM)
(This user has left DigiChat) (IP =

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:22:39 AM)
My school said no, because she did regress over the school year....my school stinks as you can tell..

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 9:22:40 AM)
(This user has entered CAPD: From the Heart) (IP =

Cindy (ID=165) (May 15, 2001 9:22:47 AM)
I' m asking for an extended school year for my daughter

Carol (ID=163) (May 15, 2001 9:22:54 AM)
Chat gremlins, again?

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:22:55 AM)
I asked but no go..

Cindy (ID=165) (May 15, 2001 9:23:19 AM)
I was told they don't offer those services during the summer

dr.j (ID=166) (May 15, 2001 9:23:26 AM)
GOodbye hello Julies mom seems the gremlins got you too ;-)

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 9:23:33 AM)
They tried to tell me no also, but the advocate I did have was helpful in getting it put in place.

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:23:35 AM)
They do but you have to prove that your child will regress over the summer to get them

Cindy (ID=165) (May 15, 2001 9:23:40 AM)
but I do know they offer speech therapy in summer for kids...

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:23:54 AM)
Dr J - why do they have retention probs?

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 9:24:06 AM)
My daughter is in grade 5 (failed grade 4) and is at a grade 2 level in her reading and writing composition .... Is this common for APD?

dr.j (ID=166) (May 15, 2001 9:24:12 AM)
Becki, someone has to provide evidence of ANY problem in order for any school or service to be provided.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 9:24:24 AM)
All you really need to do is have the teachers express that your child hs difficulty retaining information.

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:24:37 AM)
The teacher has said it a million times..

Cindy (ID=165) (May 15, 2001 9:24:54 AM)
Dr. J, when we seek out professionals that can help us deal w/the school....how much money does the involve

dr.j (ID=166) (May 15, 2001 9:25:36 AM)
Julies MOM, there are MANY reasons a child may have problems in reading and writing. One of them could be an underlying problem in APD. If you have the initial evidence there is a problem (as you state being 3 years below grade level in reading and writing). Now, you need to get the evals to determine the underlying reasons for this problem . One factor could be APD>

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 9:25:37 AM)
Have them say it in an IEP meeting and then request ESY and use their own statements against them to get what your child deserves.

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:26:22 AM)
My teacher siad if I dodn't get help for my daughter over the summer she wouldn't pass her but if i did, she would pass her..

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 9:26:33 AM)
How do I go about that dr. j.... sorry very new at this and my understanding at this point is shaky ... to say the least....

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:26:34 AM)
that was in the iep mtg

dr.j (ID=166) (May 15, 2001 9:27:11 AM)
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Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 9:27:21 AM)
Dr.J m y son has APD but it is not considered to be the sole reason for his educational difficulties as their are many other diagnosed problems.

Carol (ID=163) (May 15, 2001 9:27:44 AM)
Julies Mom, I hear you, it's been a while for me and still so much to learn

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:27:56 AM)
Me too Julies mom:)

Carol (ID=163) (May 15, 2001 9:28:11 AM)
Sounds like you are being blackmailed

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:28:20 AM)
Who is being blackmailed?

sddacox (ID=169) (May 15, 2001 9:28:25 AM)
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dr.j (ID=170) (May 15, 2001 9:28:33 AM)
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Carol (ID=163) (May 15, 2001 9:28:38 AM)
If you don't send her over the summer she won't pass, if you do , she will?

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 9:28:43 AM)
Becki be sure if it is said again in an IEP that you remind them that the criteria for ESY eligibility is a child who exhibits difficulty retaining information and who will suffer regression due to lack of educational services.

Carol (ID=163) (May 15, 2001 9:28:45 AM)
Welcome back Dr. J

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 9:28:48 AM)
I just have my first meeting today with the school... and from what i have read through email...etc... I feel that I can't really trust the school to guide us...

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:29:04 AM)
yes, thats what she said, the teacher doesn't think she should pass but the school is pushing her to pass.

dr.j (ID=170) (May 15, 2001 9:29:06 AM)
Julies mom, please don't send those gremlins after me again..... ;-)

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:29:19 AM)
I found out she had an aip last year and they never even informed me of it..

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 9:29:23 AM)
Dealing with the school is the most difficult part of raising my child.

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 9:29:26 AM)
lol....I didn't do it!!

Carol (ID=163) (May 15, 2001 9:29:40 AM)
I agree Rose, here too

dr.j (ID=170) (May 15, 2001 9:29:45 AM)
I was stating to someone, now I forget, that professionals charge whatever fees they determine to cover the services they provide. There are no set fess.

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:29:46 AM)
Don't trust the school from the beginning until you are sure they are going to be fair.

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 9:30:14 AM)
My fear is that because she is already 12 that it will be too late for her to catch up or at least get the help she really needs.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 9:30:33 AM)
Dr. J my son has a TSS in school now, what can they do that may help my child with APD issues?

dr.j (ID=170) (May 15, 2001 9:30:48 AM)
Becki, schools are never fair. THey have burdens, especially financial burdens, and they always must balance providing services for children against the financial costs for these services. THis is why you must fight.

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:31:15 AM)
I think it stinks they would rather not have my daughter learn becasue they are cheap.

dr.j (ID=170) (May 15, 2001 9:31:20 AM)
ROse4x, you hit me with an abbreviation with which I am not familiar. What is TSS?

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 9:31:28 AM)
I am also battling feelings of guilt.... I wonder how hard it must have been for her ... but unable to express it... she has always had problems in school, keeping friends, etc.

Carol (ID=163) (May 15, 2001 9:31:53 AM)
Keeping friends, Julies Mom, honestly is last to be dealt with here.

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:31:55 AM)
I am sngle with 3 kids but will get 50 jobs if that means that she will get the schooling she needs..its not even the school districts money..

dr.j (ID=170) (May 15, 2001 9:31:58 AM)
Becki, they would rather your daughter learn and not provide her services.... ;-)

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 9:32:00 AM)
Dr.J fighting for three children is very tiresome and I often feel as if I am a Salmon trying to swim upstream. I may die before I reach the end of my journey.

Carol (ID=163) (May 15, 2001 9:32:03 AM)
I feel bad but so busy with the school

Cindy (ID=165) (May 15, 2001 9:33:04 AM)
Dr. J, my daughter had a psy test in 1998, her verbal iq was 71, her performance was 90, her full scale 78...In 2000 her took the psy test again, her scoles dropped....verbal 71, performance 80 and full scale 73....what would explain the drop....and wouldn't the full scale of 73 send up a red flag to the school

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 9:33:24 AM)
A TSS is a therapeutic support staff, they are like a one-on-one aide but it is not provided by the school or its funding. A TSS is provided by mental health services.

dr.j (ID=170) (May 15, 2001 9:33:48 AM)
Julies Mom, I understand that you may feel guilty, but, for me this is my belief. Guilt is what we should feel when we know exactly what should and can be done but we CHOOSE NOT to do it. WHen you do not know what to do or what can be done, you should not be guilty, but be searching as you are doing....and getting whatever little bits of answers at a time and use that info. Educate yourself as much as possible.

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 9:34:28 AM)
Have been... driving everyone else here crazy!!......lol

dr.j (ID=170) (May 15, 2001 9:34:56 AM)
Rose4x, I wonder if a TSS is like what we call a SHADOW in our area. THat is a paraprofessional who goes around with the child focusing the child, making sure the child is attending, making sure the child is "with" the class....etc. Is that the same ?

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:34:57 AM)
Thats why this chat group is great becasue we're all crazy:)

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 9:35:16 AM)
lol ;o)

ducky (ID=171) (May 15, 2001 9:35:28 AM)
(This user has entered CAPD: From the Heart) (IP =

Cindy (ID=165) (May 15, 2001 9:35:36 AM)
Morning Ducky

dr.j (ID=170) (May 15, 2001 9:35:45 AM)
Yes, it is a prerequisite in APD to be a crazy, caring, loving, worried, wanting parent who cares about and fights for the rights of his/her children.

Carol (ID=163) (May 15, 2001 9:35:47 AM)
Hi ducky

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 9:35:48 AM)
Yes I beleive that they are the same, probably just have different names in different areas. So back to my question, what can they do that will help?

ducky (ID=171) (May 15, 2001 9:35:51 AM)
Good morning

dr.j (ID=170) (May 15, 2001 9:35:56 AM)
Quack Quack ducky ;-)

ducky (ID=171) (May 15, 2001 9:36:19 AM)
OK...you guys asked for a nickname

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 9:36:36 AM)
Ducky is fine

ducky (ID=171) (May 15, 2001 9:36:46 AM)

Cindy (ID=165) (May 15, 2001 9:36:56 AM)
Dr. J...did you get a chance to read my guestion....I know the room is moving pretty fast

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 9:37:01 AM)
I have to say that my daughter is very releived.... when we first got started she hated the thought of being put into sp ed for part of the day.... afraid kids would tease her and it made her feel "dumb" (pardon the word)...

ducky (ID=171) (May 15, 2001 9:37:14 AM)

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 9:37:41 AM)
My son hates being in special ed for part of the day and wants to go back to his regular ed classes.

dr.j (ID=170) (May 15, 2001 9:37:47 AM)
Well, in my experience, the purpose and role of the shadow or TSS is to provide NO remediation at all. So, they are not there to help the child in any way. Their goal or purpose is to help the teacher by focusing the child, monitoring the child's behavior, etc. BUT, as with ANY and ALL accomodations, along with the accommodation should be remediation to help the child become independent to do the things that the monitor or shadow or TSS is currently doing......

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:38:27 AM)
Well i have to runs since I'm at work, I guess I should be doing some:) I hope you all have a wonderful week.....

ducky (ID=171) (May 15, 2001 9:38:34 AM)
see ya

Cindy (ID=165) (May 15, 2001 9:38:37 AM)
bye Becky

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 9:38:38 AM)
You too Becki....

Becki (ID=162) (May 15, 2001 9:38:45 AM)
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sddacox (ID=169) (May 15, 2001 9:38:46 AM)
Hi, thought I would say hello. I am an audiologist, dropping in to get some insight and listen to dr. j. I need a better nickname though. I will work on it

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 9:38:48 AM)
Bye Becki it was nice to meet you

ducky (ID=171) (May 15, 2001 9:38:56 AM)
my son's TA is responsible for a lot of the accom

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 9:39:08 AM)
Hi sdd...good morning

ducky (ID=171) (May 15, 2001 9:40:04 AM)
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Carol (ID=163) (May 15, 2001 9:40:11 AM)
Hi sdd

dr.j (ID=170) (May 15, 2001 9:41:04 AM)
Example, our youngest son had a shadow for two weeks and, yes, his behavior was better because the shadow would anticipate that he would go "off" and catch him and attend to our son. SO, what the shadow was doing was NEVER allowing our son to go "off." ANd this would, eventually, teach our son, and all children in my belief, NOT to depend on themselves since the shadow does the behavior regulating.

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 9:41:31 AM)
The funny thing is... when they tested her at school they said her auditory processing was in the middle of the average range, and that everything else shows very poor results....

sddacox (ID=169) (May 15, 2001 9:41:51 AM)
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Carol (ID=163) (May 15, 2001 9:42:24 AM)
Dr. J are you saying a shadow isn't good because it doesn't allow the child to learn on their own

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 9:42:25 AM)
My son's TSS allows him to go off. What we try to teach my son is the warning signs and to allow him to find effect ways of handling his frustration.

sdda (ID=172) (May 15, 2001 9:42:28 AM)
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Carol (ID=163) (May 15, 2001 9:42:45 AM)
The chat gremlins are in full force today

Cindy (ID=165) (May 15, 2001 9:42:57 AM)
bye room......hope everyone has a great day.... :)

Cindy (ID=165) (May 15, 2001 9:43:01 AM)
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Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 9:43:03 AM)
hmmm.....I thought I sent them to school......lol

sdda (ID=172) (May 15, 2001 9:43:35 AM)
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dr.j (ID=170) (May 15, 2001 9:43:46 AM)
Julies Mom, did the school specifically do APD testing? Did an audiololgist do the testing? Were the tests specific tests of APD? Please (all) understand, APD means many things to many different professionals. In MOST cases, APD is NOT APD but is language for SLPs and psychologists. SO, if an audiologist really knowledgeable and experienced in APD did NOT do the testing, then your child did NOT have APD testing.

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 9:44:50 AM)
No... they did an education assessment....using DAB 2

dr.j (ID=170) (May 15, 2001 9:45:07 AM)
Rose4x what you say are excellent goals. NOw, what is needed is a full-team approach so that the "warning signs" can be identified at home AND in school and then the modifications would be the same at home and school.

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 9:45:23 AM)
Yes she did go to an audiologist....

dr.j (ID=170) (May 15, 2001 9:45:46 AM)
Julies Mom, then, the schools NEVER did an APD assessment I dont care what they say. APD requires special evaluative measures and special recorded materials.

dr.j (ID=170) (May 15, 2001 9:45:58 AM)
Did the audiologist do an APD assessment.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 9:46:47 AM)
My son did have PD testing by an audiologist, I know our school audiologists are incapable of doing the testing. I had to pay for it to be done outside of school. Insurance did notcover the testing for APD, they only cover the preliminary testing to ensure normal hearing not processing.

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 9:47:43 AM)
I believe so... they tested her for filtered words, auditory Figure ground, competing words and competing sentences....she said she used SCAN-A

dr.j (ID=170) (May 15, 2001 9:48:04 AM)
Rose4x, I'm surprised the insurance did not cover the APD testing, but that's medical insurance companies for you.

Carol (ID=163) (May 15, 2001 9:49:15 AM)
Have to go, good bye for now

Carol (ID=163) (May 15, 2001 9:49:18 AM)
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Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 9:49:22 AM)
Bye Carol

dr.j (ID=170) (May 15, 2001 9:50:00 AM)
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Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 9:50:10 AM)
Is there further auditory testing that should be done?

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 9:50:19 AM)
Because of the insurance companies lack of coverage I don't feel as if my son's testing was done by the best audiologist. I had to use someone who was affordable. Prices for the testing were as much as $1500.00 at some facilities.

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 9:50:58 AM)
Wow.....I only paid $125......lol.....maybe I should be worried... but that is Canadian....

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 9:51:11 AM)
Everyone keeps getting booted, we willhave to notify Debbie to see if the problem can be reme\died.

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 9:52:16 AM)
Are there usually many people here at night ?

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 9:52:26 AM)
It acually cost me $250.oo, but I don't feel the testing was the best. More than the testing being sa problem it was the lack opf explaining results that was a big issue.

dr.j (ID=173) (May 15, 2001 9:52:28 AM)
(This user has entered CAPD: From the Heart) (IP =

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 9:52:44 AM)
w/b dr.j

dr.j (ID=173) (May 15, 2001 9:52:47 AM)
SOrry, those gremlins are really at it.

dr.j (ID=173) (May 15, 2001 9:52:59 AM)
ANyway. Julies mom.

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 9:53:05 AM)

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 9:53:10 AM)
Welcome back Dr.J, you will have to alert Debbie of the continued bootings so she can see if it can be addressed.

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 9:53:29 AM)
She was tested by an audiologist... did the four sub tests using SCAN-A

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 9:54:29 AM)
I should mention that I am Canadian so some of the lingo may be different....and the sp ed laws etc.

dr.j (ID=173) (May 15, 2001 9:55:02 AM)
The SCAN (whether SCAN, SCAN-C or SCAN-A) is ONE test of APD and is even called the SCreening Test of Auditory Procesing. In the test manual it even states that the purpose of the SCAN is to screen for APD problems to determine if further testing is needed. I remember you saying your dgt failed or did poorly on the Comp Sentences subtest of the SCAN (C or A). THus, further testing is warranted to determine the underlying factors accounting for the APD problems that may have led to the failure on the COmp Sentences and to explain why she is having problems in school.

dr.j (ID=173) (May 15, 2001 9:55:55 AM)
Rose4x, I don't know if it's the chat angelfire (the server) or my IPS. I really think it's my IPS. They are not really the greatest, but inexpensive.

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 9:56:11 AM)
ok......does an audiologist do that... her recomendations were to test her again in 1yr...

dr.j (ID=173) (May 15, 2001 9:56:12 AM)
Yes, That is true. BUT, the APD tests are the same.

dr.j (ID=173) (May 15, 2001 9:56:49 AM)
Yes, an audiologist knowledgeable and experienced in APD does the complete APD test battery and you should NOT wait one year if there are problems that are NOT being addressed at present.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 9:57:12 AM)
My son did poorly on thew SSW but did okay on the Scan testing if my memory is correct. What does this indicate?

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 9:57:21 AM)
So I need to find someone who specializes in APD?

dr.j (ID=173) (May 15, 2001 9:57:33 AM)
Julies Mom, if I may ask. How old is your daughter?

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 9:57:54 AM)
She's 12 in grade 5

dr.j (ID=173) (May 15, 2001 9:58:36 AM)
Yes, Julies Mom. YOu need to find an audiologist who specializes in APD OR get the testing done by an audiologist who will do a comprehensive APD test battery and then find an audiologist to interpret the test results who specializes in APD.

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 9:58:39 AM)
The audiologist told me that she would likely still develop that part of her brain for maybe the next two years....

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 9:59:14 AM)
Thank you dr.j... I thought that was the complete test... and that I could stand on that!

dr.j (ID=173) (May 15, 2001 9:59:24 AM)
Julies Mom, your daughter will be developing ALL parts of her brain (as you and I are doing.....welll, maybe not me.....;-) ) until we die.

dr.j (ID=173) (May 15, 2001 10:00:48 AM)
My concern is her age. By 12 years of age, all of the studies and research into APD show that for children without problems, they are processing information auditorily the same as adults. BUt, if your daughter is having ANY problems (as you demonstrate she is) and she should be performing at adult levels, then, there is a problem that needs investigation, and you are doing all the right things.

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 10:00:49 AM)
She indicated that after a certain age that it was done developing... go figure... good example why we should obtain more than one opinion....;)

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:00:51 AM)
Dr. J is there an age when if becomes more difficult if not impossible to improve APD problems for children?

dr.j (ID=173) (May 15, 2001 10:01:33 AM)
NO, after (sorry) death, the brain is done modifying, changing, developing. THe brain changes EVERY time we learn something, and, I'd say, we learn something new all the time.

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 10:01:41 AM)
Its all very overwhelming!! I just hope I can get it figured out before she graduates college!!

dr.j (ID=173) (May 15, 2001 10:02:25 AM)
Yes, when a child becomes an adult. Then we work with changing auditory processing in the adult. (Sorry, trying to make a joke here) NO, I have worked with adults with processing problems as well as children and adolescents.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:03:05 AM)
Since i Have three children with LD's and educational difficulties, I am curious if all should be tested foir CAPD. Only the youngest was evaluated since I only heard of it when he was young.

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 10:03:27 AM)
Thank you very much dr. j. I need to get in gear and get to school for meeting.....

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:03:57 AM)
My two oldest can now read words at or around grade level, but have poor comprehension. Could this be due to APD?

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 10:04:08 AM)
I agree... from what I have read .... children are often diagnosed as ADD.... kinda scary when you think about it.... I'm not a great fan of drugs and children....

dr.j (ID=173) (May 15, 2001 10:04:24 AM)
WIth young children there is more plasticity (ease of change) and this becomes harder to make change as we grow older. BUT, motivation is a key to accommodating change. For adolescents, the problem is the age. And I'm sure Julies mom would agree. At age 12 years, adolescents vary with motivation and it can be a struggle to get them to WANT to make the change and work to change. But, if you can get the child to buy into the need to change and help make small but significant changes quicklyu, the adolescent works with your and becoems motivated to change.

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 10:05:30 AM)
Yes I do agree.... This has given Julie motivation... I just hope it doesn't wear off....

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 10:05:42 AM)
Ok.... have a great day... maybe see you tonight!

dr.j (ID=173) (May 15, 2001 10:05:42 AM)
It was a pleasure chatting with you. if yuou have further questions or want to discuss anything further, feel free to contact me at drj@ncapd.org by email or you can find my contact info listed in the APD referral list on the NCAPD website (www.ncapd.org)

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:05:49 AM)
Julies mom I felt that way too, but the medication really makes a difference for some children. Two of my children have been diagnosed with ADHD. I resisted medication when he was young which was a mistake, eventually I had to give in.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:07:26 AM)
The meds really helped him and he is now med free. We used medication as a tool not a cure. My son with CAPD, also has ADHD and he takes medication also.

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 10:07:27 AM)
I understand... I just think the schools are quick to want to medicate so they can control their class and not have to be botthered..... It should be manditory that children be tested for APD before even concidering drugs etc.....

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:07:42 AM)
(This user has entered CAPD: From the Heart) (IP =

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:08:07 AM)
Hi Laurie you just missed the doctor, he left for the day.

dr.j (ID=173) (May 15, 2001 10:08:28 AM)
Julies Mom, I must agree with you. Too often the meds are the first thing the schools want. ANd they are often given for the teacher not the child. Well, maybe the teacher SHOULD take some mediacation before rushing to give it to every child.

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:08:36 AM)
Hi Rose........ what's everyone chatting about?

dr.j (ID=173) (May 15, 2001 10:08:39 AM)
NO, still here. Hi Laurie C.

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 10:08:42 AM)

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:08:54 AM)
Hi Dr. J

dr.j (ID=173) (May 15, 2001 10:09:02 AM)
Well, before you all go, I promised Debbie to do an advertisement here.....

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 10:09:10 AM)
ok......this time I mean it!!.......lol.......gotta scoot!

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 10:09:16 AM)

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:09:28 AM)

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 10:09:30 AM)
Dazzle me!...lol

dr.j (ID=173) (May 15, 2001 10:09:51 AM)
Please check out the NCAPD's first conference specifically for parents and teachers on the NCAPD website. ANd, please support this chat, the conference etc. byjoining as a member of the NCAPD. (WWW.NCAPD.ORG)

dr.j (ID=173) (May 15, 2001 10:10:14 AM)
Well, not the fanciest but please consider these things. Please join and support the ncapd.

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 10:10:31 AM)
Thank you Dr. j

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:10:33 AM)
I'm a supportive member. I think I was one of the first to join. I think it is a great cause.

dr.j (ID=173) (May 15, 2001 10:10:40 AM)
ANd for the first 100 people calling in, we have this all in one.....ooops wrong comercial.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:10:51 AM)
Schools aren't doctors though and can't prescribe meds, they can only suggest. It is parents who give in without p[roper testing and diagnosis.

dr.j (ID=173) (May 15, 2001 10:10:52 AM)
Yes, Laurie is a great supporter.

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 10:10:57 AM)
See you tonight!

Julies Mom (ID=168) (May 15, 2001 10:10:59 AM)
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dr.j (ID=173) (May 15, 2001 10:11:21 AM)
Rose, I've seen schools make the recommendations for meds that are then prescribed by the child's pediatrician.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:11:21 AM)
Wish the conference wasn't in Florida, its too far for me to travel.

dr.j (ID=173) (May 15, 2001 10:11:57 AM)
Rose, take the vacation. Visit Mickeyland....I mean Disney World and, then, after wards come to the conference. You'll learn a lot.

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:12:10 AM)
Dr. J........ what was ever discussed about selling program materials for those that cannot attend?

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:12:17 AM)
Dr J I have two questions for you.

dr.j (ID=173) (May 15, 2001 10:12:27 AM)
Or, set up a conference in your area. Get a group together and contact debbie and we can set up a regional conference for you.

dr.j (ID=173) (May 15, 2001 10:12:33 AM)
YEs, rose....?

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:12:52 AM)
I'd LOVE a regional conference. I feel my state is in total darkness on this disorder!

dr.j (ID=173) (May 15, 2001 10:13:39 AM)
THen, help set up a regional conference with the NCAPD and we can get the speakers etc.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:13:42 AM)
First should I get my older two children tested(for APD) if they have poor reading comprehension , but their actually site word reading is okay? They are 15 and 12, I hadn't heard of APD when they were young.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:14:10 AM)
Laurie what state are you in?

dr.j (ID=173) (May 15, 2001 10:14:15 AM)
Rose, yes. SIte reading is a very different process than comprehension/

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:14:26 AM)
Rose...... I'm in OK.

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:15:13 AM)
Good idea Dr. J. You know...... with OK being centrally located, I bet we could draw from surrounding central states.

dr.j (ID=173) (May 15, 2001 10:15:24 AM)
SOrry to have to say this, but, I have to go. I have a parent conference in 10 minutes. Everyone have a great week. Please support the NCAPD. VIsit the website. Make arrangements and come to the great NCAPD conference in Orlando (Mickeyland). See you all in two weeks.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:15:42 AM)
Second what is the difference between the different APD tests and why are there so many done? My 9 year old son only did poorly with one of the testing areas.

dr.j (ID=173) (May 15, 2001 10:16:11 AM)
If anyone has any other questions or you want to contact me further. drj@ncapd.org or check the NCAPD website's national referral program for my contact info.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:16:19 AM)
Thanks for coming Dr.J, it was great chatting with you. I hope your confernce goes well.

dr.j (ID=173) (May 15, 2001 10:16:23 AM)
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LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:16:24 AM)
Bye Dr. J. Rose.......I'm coming in late. Where are you at in your testing

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:16:39 AM)
Have a good day and Goodye.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:17:39 AM)
Laurie testing was done over a year ago. I'm trying to understand why one test for ADP would be fine and o thers be poor.

merinance (ID=167) (May 15, 2001 10:17:44 AM)
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LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:18:12 AM)
Rose..... this APD testing stuff is so complex. I'll try to answer from what I've learned only as a parent.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:18:26 AM)
I am angry because I just realized I misplaced my son's test results.

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:18:55 AM)
What specific testing has your son already had.... is it an APD screen, or the more comprehensive tests?

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:19:02 AM)
Too much paper work to keep track of with 4 children and three with LD's and school issues.

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:19:17 AM)
It is amazing how the paper grows, isn't it?

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:19:32 AM)
I think more comprehensive but am not sure what the difference is.

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:20:22 AM)
Well....... the "screen" my son had was the Robert Keith "SCAN" test. The more comprehensive tests are done in a controlled soundbooth..... SSW test, Dichotic Digits, etc.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:20:37 AM)
With my 9 year old we have had at least a half a dozen meeting in the past few years, at least two a year.

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:21:00 AM)
There are even advanced electrophysical tests that involved brain wave measurement.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:21:18 AM)
Okay well my son had SCAN and SSW but I don't recognize the Dichotic digits one

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:22:04 AM)
The SSW is the test my son did poorly in

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:23:04 AM)
My son is 8. Last yr when he was 7 he had the SSW (Staggered Spondee Word), SAAT (Selected Auditory Attention), PPS (Pitch Patter Sequence), and Dichotic Digits - Single Pairs, Dichotic Digits - Double Pairs.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:23:43 AM)
Okay I found the test results so I can read what they say.

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:24:27 AM)
There are several other tests that audiologists can do too. A lot depends on the aud's "approach". As Dr. J has stated many times, there is no one single definition of APD, thus audiologists testing is usually dependent on what approach they follow, what "model" they use.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:24:51 AM)
Tests done were SSW,Phonemic Synthesis,SCAN, and AFT-R

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:24:58 AM)
It also is greatly dependent on the individual child's needs too.

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:25:31 AM)
How did he do on the SCAN and SSW?

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:26:22 AM)
All normal on SCAN, but poorly on SSW.

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:28:30 AM)
Rose....... one thing I've learned on this list for the past year is not to put too much stock in your child's performance on any SINGLE test....... you really need to get a BIG picture of what is going on..... tests, classroom, home, etc... and put together a picture of the "whole" child... not a snapshot in time. I know it is hard to do when we have tests and evaluations and are desparate for answers.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:28:37 AM)
abnormal results for short term memory, auditory figure ground skills, and decoding skills. Normal on auditory visula integration and organizational skills.

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:29:33 AM)
One frustrating thing with my son is that in the past, a lot of his test performances have been all over the map... low on some, ok on others, disaster on others, etc.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:29:40 AM)
Okay to qucikly fill you in my son is 9 and in third grade, but only reads on a K_!st grade level.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:30:41 AM)
He has many diagnosis but am not sure how apd fits in or how much of other problems may be due to apd

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:31:39 AM)
With knowing anything about your child, I would check out phonemic awareness skills, decoding, etc. Has he had extensive reading testing to see where the underlying problem is? You can have reading problems with no 'APD sometimes I've heard.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:32:40 AM)
He is diagnosed ADHD, dyslexic, has a language based LD, visual perception problems, CAPD, fine motor skills difficulties and sensory issues. He has also developed vocal nodules.

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:32:44 AM)
There is a woman on the APD listserv who I think is extremely knowledgable about reading issues. Her name is Linda Harmon from S.Bend, IN.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:33:03 AM)
Where are you from?

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:33:19 AM)
What is the school offering on reading remediation?

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:33:32 AM)
I am from Edmond, OK.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:34:10 AM)
All three of my older children had problems with frequent ear infections. The older two had tubes multiple times and the younger was on antiobiotic therapy for several months.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:34:29 AM)
I'm from PA.

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:35:41 AM)
My son too had multiple ear infections. Right now I am in the middle of a big insurance appeals on some of my son's speech therapy and nuropsych testing that they have denied due to not medically neccessary. I hate dealing with insurance co's! I have some family in the Beaver and MtLebanon, PA area.

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:37:18 AM)
I have done research on the medical link between OME (otitis media with effusion) and problems with speech/language in later life. I think the link is strong. Not sure on the link with APD though. I would think it would be strong too... but don't know.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:37:18 AM)
At this point I don't know. He was getting 7 periods a week of resource room reading instruction, 5 periods of one-on-one and 2 periods of small group instruction. Now however he is in special ed for all Language arts instruction and I am not happy with how they are addressing reading with him.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:39:05 AM)
I am in Philadlephia

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:39:38 AM)
What is with effusion mean?

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:40:18 AM)
Rose........ I sometimes substitute teach at my child's school (I am not a trained teacher) and help fill in when the need an extra hand in the special ed classes. I have worked in resource rooms, plus a room with children who are labeled "ED" .... emotionally disturbed. I cannot speak for all of course, but my opinion is that many of these kids need much more intensive 1 on 1 intervention that the schools simply cannot provide due to limited resources. It is the classic LD problem of budget vs help.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:41:45 AM)
I feel as if they are not addressing his reading needs and instead are willing to just accomodate for his reading problkems instead of trying to improve them.

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:42:01 AM)
Not exactly sure of the medical definition of effusion.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:42:39 AM)
is Om differnt from ome DO YOU KNOW?

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:44:02 AM)
I've always heard the terms used kind of interchangeably. I've also heard the term MEE Middle Ear Effusion. If you go to the PubMed website I bet you could get the exact definition.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:46:01 AM)
The reason why I ask is that CAPD is thought to be possibly linked to OM in childhood.

momretired (ID=175) (May 15, 2001 10:46:46 AM)
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Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:46:52 AM)
I think it is beleived that improper hearing may have effected processing development in the child.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:47:02 AM)
Hi retired

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:47:11 AM)
From what I've read, it is definately one of the things that puts a child at higher risk.

momretired (ID=175) (May 15, 2001 10:47:12 AM)

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:47:20 AM)
Hi momretired.

momretired (ID=175) (May 15, 2001 10:47:30 AM)
Hello all

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:47:59 AM)
mom you missed the doctor, bu you still have two of us parents here.

momretired (ID=175) (May 15, 2001 10:48:24 AM)
I know I'm getting in on the tail end of this confersation so could you update me fast

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:48:40 AM)
Rose....... have you had a change to look at the listserve archives? They are loaded with info. You can even search by message author..... ex. you just want to view Dr. J's notes on a certain subject during a certain time frame.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:49:06 AM)
We were justy speaking about childhood ear infections and how they may be rlevant.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:49:53 AM)
I tried to do that before but opnly got a headache looking at all the messages.lol

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:49:55 AM)
Mom...... I got in late too so I'm not sure what was discussed earlier. Rose and I are just chatting about APD testing and her son's reading issues at school. Do you have a child already DX'd with APD?

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:50:44 AM)
Rose........ if you narrow the search using the delimiters, you won't get so many notes that overwhelm you. Other wise you are right...... it is totally overwhelming.

momretired (ID=175) (May 15, 2001 10:50:47 AM)
Our child had ear infections for a long long time just had tubes put in again she has a processing problem and we are still doing testing on her

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:51:47 AM)
My son is 9 diagnosed with APD and other LD's, we aren't sure which thing is causing him th most difficulty since many are related.

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:52:22 AM)
One thing I've learned by listening to Dr. J for over a year... a parent really needs to try and separate their child's processing problems.... language processing is not the same as auditory processing. They are treated differently. It is confusing.

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:53:22 AM)
Have your children had a full speech/language eval done too? My son has language processing issues in addtion to auditory weaknesses.

momretired (ID=175) (May 15, 2001 10:54:39 AM)
Our child we received from the court at age 2yrs. since them we have found out she is ADD/ADHD,Microcephaly,speech and lang delays,auditory problems the school said and devel delays.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:54:48 AM)
With my son having APD, dyslexia, ADHD, and a language based LD it is hard to seperate and determine what problems each cause and what part of his education is being a affected.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:56:16 AM)
how old is the child now mom?

momretired (ID=175) (May 15, 2001 10:57:23 AM)
She was 2yrs. when we got her and she is now 5yrs. has been in school since she was 3yrs. old

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:57:24 AM)
Are you guys familiar with the www.ldonline.org website? It is fantastic...... a must for parents of LD children. Loaded with advice and info. There are numerous chats too connected with that website I think. Another must is the www.wrightslaw.com website if you get into a problem getting the school to provide services with your child. These two website can really help you learn to advocate.

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:58:15 AM)
Rose.. Mom..... how would you rate your relationship right now with your child's school?

ash (ID=176) (May 15, 2001 10:58:59 AM)
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Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 10:59:20 AM)
My son did have a speech and language eval. He had language therapy for 8 weeks provided by my insurance. The school doesn't have language therapy. he is getting speech therapy in school for his voice, he has vocal nodules.

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 10:59:32 AM)
Hi Ash. Dr. J is no longer with us.....but we are still discussing APD and testing issues.

ash (ID=176) (May 15, 2001 10:59:55 AM)

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 11:00:05 AM)
On a scale of 1-10 with one being the worst, I would say maybe a 2 and that is generpous of me.

ash (ID=176) (May 15, 2001 11:00:22 AM)
dr j, do you mean today or forever not here?

momretired (ID=175) (May 15, 2001 11:00:34 AM)
I fight all the time with them the school but I get the services I need because I don't back down and I'm always telling they better look at the laws because I know my rights for the kids.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 11:00:40 AM)
Have been fighting with the school since first grade and my son is almost done 3rd grade.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 11:01:18 AM)
I go to all the sites you listed and many more.

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 11:01:32 AM)
Rose....... I don't understand. A certified SLP should be able to do both language and speech therapy. Are the nodules affecting your son's articulation? Regardless..... an SLP should be able to do both types of therpay. Something doesn't sound right.

ash (ID=176) (May 15, 2001 11:01:47 AM)
we have 900+ folks fighting over here, including some caring S&Ls; http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IEP_guide

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 11:02:09 AM)
Ash........ onlly for today...... he had to leave for a client conference this morning.

momretired (ID=175) (May 15, 2001 11:02:56 AM)
Been to IEP yahoo and I'll tell you that is one of the better places to go

ash (ID=176) (May 15, 2001 11:03:01 AM)
ok thnkx laurie

ash (ID=176) (May 15, 2001 11:03:13 AM)

ash (ID=176) (May 15, 2001 11:03:19 AM)

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 11:03:24 AM)
Thanks..... I'll have to check out the IEP yahoo site.

ash (ID=176) (May 15, 2001 11:03:31 AM)
i work hard to try and find stuff to help

ash (ID=176) (May 15, 2001 11:03:45 AM)

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 11:03:51 AM)
I know the tension and stress of trying to advocate for your child can be so tiring.

ash (ID=176) (May 15, 2001 11:04:07 AM)
my son's neuropsych from 1996 says weakness in auditory processing

ash (ID=176) (May 15, 2001 11:04:27 AM)
1999 had capd testing at dupont in del.

colleen (ID=177) (May 15, 2001 11:04:32 AM)
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ash (ID=176) (May 15, 2001 11:04:39 AM)
results are average to above average

ash (ID=176) (May 15, 2001 11:04:42 AM)

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 11:05:50 AM)
Well our school district does not provide language therapy for language processing problems, it isn't required. The speech therapy is to teach him to properly use his voice.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 11:06:50 AM)
If he misuses it he may eventually lose his voice completely. The nodules will cause him to get hoarse when he abuses his voice.

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 11:07:01 AM)
Ash........ that's interesting. My son's neuropsych eval stated there was no evidence of auditory processing deficit, however, all his audiological and language evals show is performs very poorly on APD tests under controlled conditions. Come to find out the reason the neuropsych made such a statement was because he didn't really do formal APD testing........ his tests were mainly cognitive in nature (IQ)...... not auditory testing. So he made that comment based on my son's performance on IQ tests, not APD tests. It gets so confusing based on who is doing the testing... what their field of expertise is.

ash (ID=176) (May 15, 2001 11:07:19 AM)
rose if the goals of the iep are there then they must provide pragmatic language, conversational language what ever you are talking about

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 11:08:38 AM)
Well the goals don't address his language processing problems at all, the pHila., PA district is not required to address language if it is procesing related.

ash (ID=176) (May 15, 2001 11:09:02 AM)
they are required to address needs

ash (ID=176) (May 15, 2001 11:09:25 AM)
transforming them into goals and provide the realted service for fape

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 11:09:28 AM)
Rose....... your statement that the PA district is not required to address language if it is processing related... is this something they've put in writing to you?

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 11:09:31 AM)
Yes but problem is they say there is no need.

ash (ID=176) (May 15, 2001 11:09:57 AM)
rose i am in pa by scranton

ash (ID=176) (May 15, 2001 11:10:09 AM)
rose get an iee?

ash (ID=176) (May 15, 2001 11:10:18 AM)
go to dr young

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 11:10:41 AM)
His speech and language evals all state he was ineligible, he only got it after being diagnosed with vocal nodules.

ash (ID=176) (May 15, 2001 11:10:53 AM)
theirs or an iee?

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 11:11:16 AM)
Ash this is Philadlephia district policy not a PA one.

momretired (ID=175) (May 15, 2001 11:11:28 AM)
I have tons of info I've taken off the internet to do IEP's and I have two children to do IEPs for both have different problems. But both have either a visiually or auditory processing problem and I'm in the process of getting everything documented and then I'm going to the school and they will provide what is needed. Our kids have rights and as parents we must fight for them no matter what it takes or how much money it costs us. Important to document everthing and take all medical information to the schools because the schools are not always right

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 11:11:28 AM)
Rose.....one thing I've learned with my district is that here, it is much easier to get them to address and remediate LANGUAGE problems than AUDTIORY PROCESSING problems because of the lack of consensus within the professional world of what the exact definition of APD is. My son needed pragmatic language therpay: morphology (present /past tenses), syntax, etc.

ash (ID=176) (May 15, 2001 11:11:35 AM)
everything has to be in compliance with idea tho

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 11:13:20 AM)
Rose..... who ordered and paid for the speech/language eval of your son.... the district or you? Was it an independent educational evaluation (IEE... done by someone OUTSIDE the district)?

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 11:13:47 AM)
Theirs indicated no need. Mine indicated language therapy needed, but insurance only pays for 8 weeks a year. The school would not provide language therapy for processing issues. He now gets speech in school due top the diagnosed nodules, but still no language therapy.

ash (ID=176) (May 15, 2001 11:13:54 AM)
laurie yes my buddy has a eval for apd needs and the schools eval differs so she has to go to due process in ks.

ash (ID=176) (May 15, 2001 11:14:35 AM)
rose sounds like you need the hearing officer to decide or order a 3rd testing

ash (ID=176) (May 15, 2001 11:15:02 AM)
i have to get off and hope to be back in a few min

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 11:15:33 AM)
So the IEE states language therapy needed, the school eval says no indicated needed, so you have the classic problem of a "theirs" versus "ours" fight. Have you ruled out going to due process to get him the needed therapy?

colleen (ID=177) (May 15, 2001 11:15:59 AM)
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ash (ID=176) (May 15, 2001 11:16:11 AM)
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Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 11:16:27 AM)
No copmplete IEE done, but he has had independent evaluation for many areas. He has had independent speech/language evaluations, and neurological and psychological evals, along with auditory evaluations etc.

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 11:17:16 AM)
And they are unwilling to consider ANY of these outside evaluations you've had done?

momretired (ID=175) (May 15, 2001 11:17:50 AM)
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Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 11:18:31 AM)
Haven't ruled out anything, but tired of these struggles. Spend all my time looking up laws, get a little more each time. I'm worried about all the delays it causes my son and how it will effect him in the long run.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 11:19:02 AM)
No they consider them but are selective in what they will do.

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 11:19:14 AM)
If you took it to hearing, based on what you've stated here about you having so much IEE data, I'd think a hearing officer would rule in your favor easily. I'd probably pursue it. Time is critical...... your are right. And I know it is a struggle. Most parents give in.

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 11:19:30 AM)
Cherry picking the evaluations that favor their position is a common tactic used.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 11:20:24 AM)
It is hard due to having three LD children, three differnt schools to deal with and three diffewrent child's issues.

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 11:21:23 AM)
I appreciate your help Laurie but I have toi run and get my youngest ready foir school

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 11:21:29 AM)
This is why I have chosen to privately pay for my IEE's.... I got them done quickly and it my ME who decided whether or not the results were shared with the school. Rose..... hang in there. You are doing the best you can.

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 11:21:42 AM)
I have to run too....... good talking with you Rose!

Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 11:22:05 AM)
You too, take care and I hope to chat again soon.

LaurieC (ID=174) (May 15, 2001 11:22:12 AM)
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Rose4x (ID=164) (May 15, 2001 11:22:12 AM)
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